19/08/2018 Mediterranean film festival
At one point Atef attempted suicide and I had to stop filming
The mysterious side of
the former member of the Femen movement Amina Sboui, as well as her everyday life,
are shown in the documentary film "Upon the Shadow", which will be
screened within the competition program of the 19th Mediterranean Film
Festival. Director Nada Mezni Hafaiedh brings a strong story about (not)
accepting the LGBT community in the Arab world countries and, as she mentioned
in the interview for Večernji list, she hopes that the audience in Široki
Brijeg will appreciate the film and watch it with engagement. We bring the
entire interview here.
You are a Tunisian, but as your parents were
diplomats you were exposed to different cultures - you where in the United
States, France, Canada ... How much has life in the West influenced your views
and your decision to deal with the film?
The fact that I have been involved with several cultures makes me kind of aware of ethics that have been derived from religions, philosophy and culture, of course. It conducts me somehow to debate on my films about topics like human rights, women rights (abortion, freedom...). Homosexuality...
You were born in Saudi Arabia. What kind of feeling do you have towards this country?
Honestly I keep a very good souvenir of my childhood over the past years. I was surrounded by great people from the French School to the American School where I was, the people where really open-minded. But it’s true that as you get out from school or compounds (where most of the foreign people live) things can be pretty hard. You are accustomed to the grossly odd laws that exist within the nation, as a woman You are obliged somehow to wear the abaya in public or sometimes to cover your hair, and that there is strict segregation between men and women most stringently enforced by the muttawas or religious police. Truth is that women’s right don’t really exist there, and only now, in 2018 women are free to drive. In Saudi Arabia there is everything: mixed parties, alcohol, a big community of homosexual… but all HIDDEN. It’s a land of blatant hypocrisy and double standards.
The fact that I have been involved with several cultures makes me kind of aware of ethics that have been derived from religions, philosophy and culture, of course. It conducts me somehow to debate on my films about topics like human rights, women rights (abortion, freedom...). Homosexuality...
You were born in Saudi Arabia. What kind of feeling do you have towards this country?
Honestly I keep a very good souvenir of my childhood over the past years. I was surrounded by great people from the French School to the American School where I was, the people where really open-minded. But it’s true that as you get out from school or compounds (where most of the foreign people live) things can be pretty hard. You are accustomed to the grossly odd laws that exist within the nation, as a woman You are obliged somehow to wear the abaya in public or sometimes to cover your hair, and that there is strict segregation between men and women most stringently enforced by the muttawas or religious police. Truth is that women’s right don’t really exist there, and only now, in 2018 women are free to drive. In Saudi Arabia there is everything: mixed parties, alcohol, a big community of homosexual… but all HIDDEN. It’s a land of blatant hypocrisy and double standards.
Your movie which is coming to the Mediterranean Film Festival "Upon the Shadow" talks about a member of the feminist group Femen who lives in the apartment with gays and transvestites, who were pushed away from home by their parents. Can you tell us some more details about the movie - namely, it is mentioned in the synopsis that there are many unpredictable things that happen and that everything has been recorded live?
What prompted me to do this documentary is that unfortunately the Tunisian society is homophobic. It is very difficult to grow and protect your sexual freedom in a society where it is taboo or strongly disparaged. For instance in Western societies, homosexuals claim rights to marriage and adoption. In Tunisia homosexuality is prohibited. Since 1913, the Article 230 of the Tunisian Penal Code punishes "sodomy between consenting adults", therefore homosexuals risk the prison, between 3 to 5 years of prison. One of the big challenges that I faced when making the film was that at some point when I was making the film I felt that I was kind of stealing a part of their privacy, I was struggling with the fact of exposing their private life without filters and also I wanted all the scenes to be as faithful as possible to their reality. It wasn’t easy for me and wasn’t either easy for them, of course. Most of the main scenes are caught live. One of the hardest moments that we had to undergo with all the crew and cast was when Atef had attempted suicide. That moment I knew that it’s over, I had to stop shooting!
What is the status of a gay community, but
also a feminist in Tunisia? This country, from our point of view, is more
liberal than most other Arab countries when it comes to minority rights issues...?
Luckily we are the most liberal country in the Arab world even though I think there is still much to do to be compared to European countries. However, Tunisian activists have taken increasingly bold steps in the last three years to open up real and public debate on lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer and intersex (LGBTQI) issues. Recent moves in 2017 - and at the start of this year, in particular - offer a glimmer of hope in the conservative Muslim country where same-sex relations have long been taboo. As countless associations surfaced in the post-revolutionary years, local groups that openly support the cause – including Shams, Damj, Mawjoudin or Chouf - made their appearance and soon became part of the Tunisian Association for the Defence of Individual Liberties (ADLI). Gay rights' groups gained an unprecedented space at the heart of Tunisia's civil society, taking the discussion in public and in the media. The subject of LGBT rights has attracted more and more attention in the recent period, as multiple actions have been initiated by organisations campaigning for sexual minority rights and human rights groups.
Luckily we are the most liberal country in the Arab world even though I think there is still much to do to be compared to European countries. However, Tunisian activists have taken increasingly bold steps in the last three years to open up real and public debate on lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer and intersex (LGBTQI) issues. Recent moves in 2017 - and at the start of this year, in particular - offer a glimmer of hope in the conservative Muslim country where same-sex relations have long been taboo. As countless associations surfaced in the post-revolutionary years, local groups that openly support the cause – including Shams, Damj, Mawjoudin or Chouf - made their appearance and soon became part of the Tunisian Association for the Defence of Individual Liberties (ADLI). Gay rights' groups gained an unprecedented space at the heart of Tunisia's civil society, taking the discussion in public and in the media. The subject of LGBT rights has attracted more and more attention in the recent period, as multiple actions have been initiated by organisations campaigning for sexual minority rights and human rights groups.
How much movies like your "Upon the Shadow" can help members
of the LGBT community in the Arab world?
Films like Upon the Shadow can eventually help the LGBT community to give space to queer people in general, in order to escape a bit from social pressure, and also to identify with something, find the means to express themselves. But most of all, it makes aware the parents that reject their children because of their sexual orientation. And that rejection can lead them to dangerous issues, like drugs, prostitution, delinquency… There is a long way to go in terms of having LGBT films in the Arab world. Unfortunately, the film Upon the Shadow hasn’t been selected in any Arabic film festival COUNTRY except in Tunisia, Tunis-Carthage Film Festival and the 1st edition of the Mawjidin Queer Film Festival In Tunisia.
Do Arabs harder discover their sexual preferences than in other parts of the world, because of the fear that the society or the government discard and punish them?
Exactly. The one issue that affects all gay people – everywhere – at some point in their lives is coming out. For Muslims this can be an especially difficult decision. The pressure to marry is much greater in Muslim countries than in most western countries. Remaining single is usually equated with social disaster and once young people have completed their studies, organising their marriage becomes a priority for the family. The more traditional kinds of families take on the task of finding them a partner; arranged marriages are still very common. Also how families respond to a coming out depends on several factors, including social class and their level of education. In the more extreme cases, coming out results in the person being ostracised by their family or even physically attacked. A less harsh reaction is to seek a “cure” – either through religion or, in better-off families – through expensive but futile psychiatric treatment. Being gay in an Arabic country is also seen as a crime, the penalty is up to 3 years of prison. For example, In Saudi Arabia, sodomy is punishable by death – though no executions have been reported for at least a decade. These laws have a catastrophic effect on the lives of people who are unlucky enough to get caught but, despite occasional crackdowns, the authorities don’t, on the whole, actively seek out gay people to arrest them. The problem with such laws, even if not vigorously enforced, is that they signal official disapproval of homosexuality and, coupled with the fulminations of religious scholars, legitimise discrimination by individuals at an everyday level and may also provide an excuse for action by vigilantes.
Films like Upon the Shadow can eventually help the LGBT community to give space to queer people in general, in order to escape a bit from social pressure, and also to identify with something, find the means to express themselves. But most of all, it makes aware the parents that reject their children because of their sexual orientation. And that rejection can lead them to dangerous issues, like drugs, prostitution, delinquency… There is a long way to go in terms of having LGBT films in the Arab world. Unfortunately, the film Upon the Shadow hasn’t been selected in any Arabic film festival COUNTRY except in Tunisia, Tunis-Carthage Film Festival and the 1st edition of the Mawjidin Queer Film Festival In Tunisia.
Do Arabs harder discover their sexual preferences than in other parts of the world, because of the fear that the society or the government discard and punish them?
Exactly. The one issue that affects all gay people – everywhere – at some point in their lives is coming out. For Muslims this can be an especially difficult decision. The pressure to marry is much greater in Muslim countries than in most western countries. Remaining single is usually equated with social disaster and once young people have completed their studies, organising their marriage becomes a priority for the family. The more traditional kinds of families take on the task of finding them a partner; arranged marriages are still very common. Also how families respond to a coming out depends on several factors, including social class and their level of education. In the more extreme cases, coming out results in the person being ostracised by their family or even physically attacked. A less harsh reaction is to seek a “cure” – either through religion or, in better-off families – through expensive but futile psychiatric treatment. Being gay in an Arabic country is also seen as a crime, the penalty is up to 3 years of prison. For example, In Saudi Arabia, sodomy is punishable by death – though no executions have been reported for at least a decade. These laws have a catastrophic effect on the lives of people who are unlucky enough to get caught but, despite occasional crackdowns, the authorities don’t, on the whole, actively seek out gay people to arrest them. The problem with such laws, even if not vigorously enforced, is that they signal official disapproval of homosexuality and, coupled with the fulminations of religious scholars, legitimise discrimination by individuals at an everyday level and may also provide an excuse for action by vigilantes.
When will religion become less dominant in
shaping social rules and laws in Arab countries?
Arab society, in general is a conservative society that depends heavily on Islamic teachings. For instance sex in the Arab world is the opposite of sport. Everyone talks about football but hardly anyone plays it; whereas everyone is having sex but no-one wants to talk about it. The problem in the Arab countries is the gap between appearance and reality. It’s not that people aren’t doing what other people are doing all over the world. It’s that they feel reluctant to speak openly about it. Between 60% of young men will say they’ve had sexual relations before marriage, but upwards of 80 % of young women say they haven’t. Which begs the question: who are all these young men having sex with? lol A lot of arguments have been hijacked by Islamic conservatives. People have become incredibly conservative, not just Muslim but also Christian and Jewish conservatives. They wrap sex up in religion and use it as a tool of control. This creates a whole climate where everything is haram (forbidden). We have a long history as Arabs of being very open on sexual matters within the context of Islam. My biggest hope is that we can reclaim the spirit of our ancestors, for whom sex was not just a problem but also a pleasure. And it was not just a pleasure for men, but also for women. If we can reclaim that spirit, a lot of the battle will have been won. That will set us on a good path to deal with many other issues in the generation to come.
What do you know about Bosnia and Herzegovina, where your movie will be presented soon?
I know that people are amazing and that the country is really beautiful. My dad as a diplomat used to travel a lot over there. I wish I could make it and come and present the film … However, I am very glad and happy that my film is participating and in competition with other documentaries. I hope that it will be appreciated and people will feel engaged watching it.
Arab society, in general is a conservative society that depends heavily on Islamic teachings. For instance sex in the Arab world is the opposite of sport. Everyone talks about football but hardly anyone plays it; whereas everyone is having sex but no-one wants to talk about it. The problem in the Arab countries is the gap between appearance and reality. It’s not that people aren’t doing what other people are doing all over the world. It’s that they feel reluctant to speak openly about it. Between 60% of young men will say they’ve had sexual relations before marriage, but upwards of 80 % of young women say they haven’t. Which begs the question: who are all these young men having sex with? lol A lot of arguments have been hijacked by Islamic conservatives. People have become incredibly conservative, not just Muslim but also Christian and Jewish conservatives. They wrap sex up in religion and use it as a tool of control. This creates a whole climate where everything is haram (forbidden). We have a long history as Arabs of being very open on sexual matters within the context of Islam. My biggest hope is that we can reclaim the spirit of our ancestors, for whom sex was not just a problem but also a pleasure. And it was not just a pleasure for men, but also for women. If we can reclaim that spirit, a lot of the battle will have been won. That will set us on a good path to deal with many other issues in the generation to come.
What do you know about Bosnia and Herzegovina, where your movie will be presented soon?
I know that people are amazing and that the country is really beautiful. My dad as a diplomat used to travel a lot over there. I wish I could make it and come and present the film … However, I am very glad and happy that my film is participating and in competition with other documentaries. I hope that it will be appreciated and people will feel engaged watching it.
